Contingent Leadership with Victoria Pelletier

Victoria Pelletier: Yeah. Yeah. Happy to. I’m spending a ton of time with clients talking about how to future proof their workforce how to think about , the evolving skills for the future. And and with that I refer to variety of different ways and a balance of ways to think about the skills that you have today in building for future and contingent.

Leadership is really an umbrella term for a couple of those, and that can be everything from contractors that you bring in for a finite period of time, or a specific engagement or project. It can be fractional leadership. Which is typically more used for smaller organizations as they’re scaling, where they don’t need or cannot afford a full-time leader, whether that’s a finance leader, a marketing leader, a growth leader and it can also be, , part-time.

So it’s looking at how do you bring the skills in at the time that’s needed for the length of time that is needed. So when we think of, you know. Buy the talent, borrow the talent, you know, build the talent. This notion of binding talent, internal mobility thinking about automation, I refer to seven B, so b it would be the other one.

Auto and thinking about their digital workforce sadly you bounce people out of the organization because they don’t have the right skills, the desire or propensity to learn. So it’s a balance of all of those. So yeah, I was writing around contingent leadership just as a way of companies. Needing to think about doing things differently, optimizing their workforce for today, but also growth for future.

Aidan McCullen: With the context of contingent leadership or this idea of fractional work, it brings in so many questions about the mindset needed.

If you’re a fractional worker. Also what it means to people who are used to established building their career for long term in an organization. So with that in mind, let’s give a bit of context to why you started that article with the Jobs story, which is fascinating for people who haven’t read the book on Steve Jobs and the history of Apple.

It’s absolutely fascinating, including his often, as you said, in the art aggressive leadership style. But let’s give context to that and then. To what needs to change in the workforce to enable this new idea of the gig economy? Well, like true gig economy of being a C-suite gig economy worker.

Victoria Pelletier: , I started with that one because he is iconic and known there’s a strong reputation and brand around his leadership style. But also that the organization I. Thought about him in one way and it evolved, right? So they brought him in for a very specific need and time and then made the decision to move him in, you know, in a permanent capacity back, you know, his role as CEO. that’s why I used him as the example. Also it’s encouraging leadership to think very differently around the needs of their business and that gig economy, being a part of that. I think too many leaders hiring leaders, talent acquisition teams think about the need for permanency. And the workforce today doesn’t think in that same way.

You know, my parents’ generation or even when I entered the generation of the workforce, we’re thinking about working long-term at one organization. You know, , the millennials, gen Zs, they’re thinking now around. Job security being connected to their own personal development, making sure that their skills are relevant for future.

So I need leaders to think about that, the gig economy as a way to drive the results when they need it, and pivoting if they do. Like the Steve Jobs example of making the gig worker potentially permanent, but again, doing that from a strategic. Way of thinking about skills connected to business and technology strategy and growing for future.

Aidan McCullen: One of the things I thought about you, you’re an advisor to startups and you are a huge admirer of startups as well. And when you’re a startup, I, I often think one of the first things a startup founder in this day and age in a digital realm, in a digital in a digital era, they do, the first hire is usually a CTO.

It’s expensive, and then hiring software engineers is really expensive and all of a sudden the founder is sleeping on couches or back, moved it back in with their parents or whoever will bring them in to save as much cash as possible. And one of the things you’re a proponent of is this idea that, well, fractional work or contingent leadership is actually a way to get there, but the challenge of that is.

You know, this idea where even I have this work from home is are they really working or how much time are they given to my company versus if they’re working fractionally for other companies? That’s a huge challenge and it takes a huge amount of trust. I.

Victoria Pelletier: It does for sure. And so I like to focus on outcomes so I had a saying long before the Covid remote era of work, that is, there are no schedules. There are just deliverables. This is how, when we think about gig economy, when we think whether it’s, you know, particularly in a fractional environment, sure you might agree and come to terms to pay for the equivalent of two days per week, but being really clear on success and how that’s going to be measured and focusing on outcomes. And then we need to be a little less concerned around the schedule, the proverbial bums in seat. And also the workforce of today wants to work in an environment where there is trust inherent, where they feel that great sense of belonging, even if that’s for an only, you know, committed 20 hours a week versus a full-time schedule.

Aidan McCullen: If leadership needs to change and if a startup founder has huge opportunities because of this, then there’s the shift in the mindset of HR business partners, HR leaders, those who hire people into the organization because their questions will change.

The ways they look at CVS will change. Because often if you look at a fractional worker cv, you’ll go, oh my God, this person job hops, or they’re working six jobs at the same time. How can they do it? So that means there’s a systemic. Change needed within the system of hiring in a fractional world.

Victoria Pelletier: Absolutely, and interestingly, you know, I more and more now I talk to senior leaders about recognizing the role of HR as being their strategic business advisor. Strategic partner in this. So they, you know, the chief human resource or chief people officer needs to have a seat at the CEO table at the versus, you know, a level down.

They need to be that advisor. They need to be connecting the business strategy, which includes the technology enablement the skills that are required to build towards that. And being critical in their assessment of what they have today and then working to build a multi-pronged approach to building those skills for the future and finding them in a very different manner. And so that’s where, you know, I think, you know, HR of the past was much more around the transactional activities of hire to retire and it’s so much more strategic today, which is why, you know, we need them at their seat at the table to. You know, help us develop those strategies. Leveraging technology, by the way, around looking at skills.

How can we not only assess the skills and the proficiency today, but there’s a significant amount of work to infer I. The skills that people can acquire or have acquired based upon the different role types they’ve had, maybe in my world of, you know, consulting the industries that they’ve supported and that context of those into where they can go for future.

So more of a mobility approach versus a pure build by or borrow.

Aidan McCullen: Then there’s the question of if you’re, if you reverse here and you think about, well. How then should the education system. Support this new shift because I lecture and one of the things I see with many of the students is that they want to get into a big brand immediately. And I’m always more trying to encourage them to go, well, if you work for a scrappy startup or scale-up, you’re gonna be doing so many different roles, and in there you’re gonna be in the trenches learning versus being in charge of a tiny pixel of a large organization that’s really well established and therefore that needs a different mindset.

Of the learn of the entry, elo, the entry employee that they have to go in with this different role, including you may be only in this role for six weeks, six months or a year, and that’s not a reflection on you. That’s a reflection on how fast that industry shifts. So I’d love your thoughts on that because that’s a huge challenge I see.

Victoria Pelletier: Yeah, you’re right. I, I, I love your recommendation to, you know, those around looking at. A different type of environment versus landing in the big brands. I think of some of my early career and when I made, you know, a giant leap and took a risk in going, you know, into a private, smaller organization from big banking, that set me up for success.

The amount of of what I learned, you know, across a multiple of functions, you know, is why I am where I am today. So I would encourage people to look at, some something different where they can, can learn a variety of different skills. Number one, you know the. duties as assigned, kind of as part of the role profile, helping them for future one, two.

What I see missing, you know, from whether it’s business schools or other functional or technical schools, is what we see more and more needed now besides the sort of advanced. Hard skills, let’s say, whether those are technology or you know, the functional skills of, you know, marketing or finance or whatever, is With the rise of AI and automation, our work is changing.

The work that remains behind requires a different mindset. So agility, resilience, creativity, and problem solving. That’s not being taught. as much as we need these hard functional skills, that demand for these other humanized skills is even greater.

Aidan McCullen: Which sta talks to your concept of being unstoppable, but also the, the idea of purpose in your work becomes really important because if you can find a red thread. Across a wide range of industries that on the outside they may not seem connected, but on the inside to you, they make absolute sense, which means people need to let go of caring what other people think.

And I, and I often think, and I’d love your thoughts on this, particularly from your work on resilience, is. How to encourage that in people to really go look, stop caring what others think, and stop trying to live to a life, a script that you did not write. Maybe it’s what your parents, you think your parents want, or what they will say about you.

This prevents so many people from living out there. Dreams.

Victoria Pelletier: I agree. I mean, if I, I think if I had followed the path that I don’t think my parents expected of me, but I, I, at a very young age had expectations for myself. I thought I was gonna be down one path, but I ended up following you know, passion. I. Purpose. For me, a big part of that is also about consistently being challenged and growing and learning new things.

So if, if any of your listeners are gonna go and look up my career path, it’s not linear. It’s all over the place, but that, you know, and so I encourage people to, to think about that as well. I have a phrase I use for many different things, strategic intentionality. And so although I developed a strategy for where I wanted to go, and I was intentional about that, I’ve always complimented it with a, a little bit of the go with the flow and intuition and following, again, purpose and passion where that took me.

So I’d tell your listeners to, you know, to hopefully take that advice. Who knows where it can take them.

Aidan McCullen: The uncomfortable question here is I’m an entrepreneur, I’m working for myself, the cost of getting a higher wrong. Is so expensive because it’s like an intercept in NFL or in rugby or whatever sport. It’s like an intercept score where you’re about to score and then all of a sudden you’re back on your own, under your own line or under your own sticks, and the cost of getting that wrong is so I.

A demoralizing. So a psychological effect is it’s demoralizing. Then you have to go back to the market and hire again. But also the opportunity cost of the time you’ve lost is huge. And I thought it’s such a benefit to work in this contingent leadership to be able to hire C-Suites where you can literally dip your toe in the water and the, the law is on your side for a change where you can actually happily part company with somebody because it’s not working out for both part parties as well.

Victoria Pelletier: Exactly, and also you think about one, you gain the benefit of, particularly at the C-Suite, these leaders who’ve, you know, come with such depth across. Many years usually and sometimes, you know, multiple geographies, multiple industries. So bringing that into the organization one is incredible. But like you, you said, the reality is if it doesn’t work out, then there’s a great opportunity to part ways without that huge feeling of guilt of doing it, or the difficulty of, you know, working through a a long onerous performance plan.

Aidan McCullen: The last thing I wanted to talk about was if you’re thinking about the phase into which we’re entering in the workforce where the cycles of change are incessant. Everybody’s feeling this we have, I.

First Covid, then wars, now tariffs. There’s just absolute chaos out there. So it takes the resilience that you talk about in your work, in your TED Talk, but it also means that organizations need to be more open to innovation and.

This is a contentious topic in many, many boardrooms and hR rooms all over the world is getting people back to work in the office. And Covid got us used to working from home. And some people when they’re working from home, they may not be pulling their weight as much as they might do so in the office.

And the other thing is it’s disastrous for innovation. If you want people to have those water cooler moments to get together, to be able to debate ideas, to come up with a much better concept. It’s very difficult to do in a virtual environment, and I’d love your thoughts on that because I think it’s something that’s not talked about.

We talk about bringing people back to the office, but it’s never shared why, and this is one of the huge benefits.

Victoria Pelletier: Yeah, I I agree with you although I’m a proponent for a hybrid. Environment. I don’t love companies that have mandated 100% return to a physical office because I want to create flexibility for our, our teams, much like, you know, and trust quite frankly. You know, as I said, my saying is there are no schedules, there’s just deliverables.

So let’s give our teams the trust in the space and capacity to determine what works for them. One. But that said two i innovation. Networking growth, the like conversations, as you said, that happens at the water cooler will not happen in a remote environment. So I think there needs to be some mandate for a return, whether that’s 50%, whether it’s two, three, whatever days in the office.

Do that, create the flexibility, but create curated. Time space to be together, to innovate, to problem solve, and particularly even think of it like the, the, those newer entrants into the workforce, the opportunity to be known, to have the casual conversation with other leaders to help them grow their careers.

So I, I’m a proponent of a hybrid environment where we. Give flexibility. That creates still higher productivity for many of the teams who don’t need to commute on those one or two days a week to an office. But also have that those curated opportunities to be there in person you know, connecting face to face building relationships and, and getting creative with one another.

Aidan McCullen: Final. Final one is, and I wanna link this to one of your. Previous books Influence Unleashed is that you have a great personal brand and I found in many, many companies, the company doesn’t allow them to have a personal brand. it’s almost like it’s frowned upon to be sharing your concepts, your ideas publicly and Kyndryl are magnificent that this, and I have a huge LinkedIn following, for example as a brand company, half a million followers, which is incredible.

But you also have a massive following. And it’s encouraged in Kyndryl, and I’m linking this to the idea if you’re a contingent worker or a fractional worker, you need to have a personal brand because the personal brand is really your calling card. And I’d love you to share some final thoughts on that because it’s something that’s so often overlooked by people .

Victoria Pelletier: Yeah, it’s critically important. I attribute a large part of my career success to having a very strong personal brand and a network that’s grown out of that. But where I see many people getting it wrong is they focus on one thing and one thing alone, which is what they do and who they do it for. But we are more than that, you know? So for me there’s four areas I think we need to focus on in building our brands. Most definitely our, let’s call it eminence, the subject matter expertise that we have and where we’ve done it in the past. And again, develop a narrative that you wanna share with the world that speaks to that expertise. But then do business with people they like and they trust. So we need to humanize. Those people that we are doing business with. So what’s your story? What’s unique about you? But also on the flip side, what’s different? So the third part of that is what’s different. The two are very connected. Your storytelling, who you are as a human, but then also what makes you different from others that do what you do. And the last part is thinking about legacy and impact. Like what do you wanna be known for? And so. All four of those things are what I think build a strong brand. And you don’t set it and forget it. You are very consistent and relevant to the people you’re trying to engage with. And the the, the amount you engage with other people’s content, post new content, relevant content needs to be an ongoing, again, not a set it and forget it.

So that’s very important. It’s, you’re never too late to start that. But I also, you know, in telling. My kids coming outta college. They need to be starting it now as well.

Aidan McCullen: I think that’s a beautiful way to finish that message of hope. And also, you gotta hustle yourself. You gotta do this extra work, and in the early days, it’s not seen it if for a long, long time you’ll be building a very small followership and then all of a sudden you’ll turn a corner.

But I’d love for people to know where to find you, where to reach out to you for keynotes to find your books, et cetera.

Victoria Pelletier: Yeah, so I have a website which is Victoria dash Pelletier.com where they can learn lots more about me and also if they choose to link out to connect on the other platforms, they can do that from there as well.

Aidan McCullen: Author of Influence Unleashed, the Power of Whole Human Leadership and Unstoppable. Victoria Peltier, thank you for joining us.

Victoria Pelletier: Thanks for having me.