Transcript
Aidan: A big part of better leadership comes from understanding how intelligence, the human kind, really works, and how to make the most of it in a changing context.
That includes knowing how to make the smartest possible decisions where there’s no easy answer to be had. It means bringing out the best in people who look up to you, even when you’re all under pressure. It means knowing how to build a team, how to read a room, mend a relationship, and much, much more.
This is what leadership intelligence is for. It is a pleasure to welcome the author of Leadership Intelligence: Science-Backed Strategies for Mastering 21 Everyday Management Challenges. Caroline Webb, welcome to the show.
Caroline Webb: Thank you. It’s great to be here
Aidan: It’s so good to have you. I’ve been dying to get stuck into this book, and I have to tell our audience, you’re gonna have to take your time reading this one.
There’s a, there’s a, such a body of knowledge in here, a lifetime of [00:01:00] knowledge, and I didn’t get to cover it all, but I picked out a few absolutely brilliant chapters that I’d love to get stuck into. But before we do, Caroline, I’d love you to share your background of this book, your previous book as well, and where you’re coming from, and if you had an elevator moment with our audience, what would you want them to get across from this book?
Caroline Webb: Well, I’m an executive coach that focuses on helping people thrive and excel in their work, um, especially as leaders, by drawing on insights from behavioral and cognitive science. And so this book is that for leaders. My last book, How to Have a Good Day, was that for anyone who’s in the professional world trying to, , raise their game. And the book came out of years and years of seeing that in my day job, which is leadership coaching, when people understand a bit about how the human mind works, it becomes a lot easier to make the most of the human talent in their teams and, and in their head as well. And so that was very interesting to me to see [00:02:00] again and again how understanding a tiny bit of neuroscience made it easier, , to bring the best out of other people, and I wanted to put that into a really easy-to-use playback- playbook format so that people could reach in, , grab whatever they needed for a specific topic and get in and out really efficiently.
But also write it in a way that was, you know, nice and enjoyable to read from start to finish if that was more, you know, what you’ve got time for and what your jam is.
Aidan: You absolutely did that, by the way. It’s very snackable, and I have to tell you, I get so many emails. I get probably three a day of pitches for books, and authors, and business people to be on the show. But this book really stood out because of the two goals of the show, which is the future of work and the science of learning, and I felt this was at the Venn diagram intersection of those two things, because you really do lean into the neuroscience of learning as well.
But I thought we’d share the big idea of the book, which is where you separate [00:03:00] wisdom into two different types: experiential wisdom, which comes from having been in a situation, and we see that with a leader, like, they’re in a, in a, in some way imprinted by what happened to them before. So if they have an experience, that becomes their reference point.
But then you talk about this concept of deliberate wisdom, which is the set of intentional mental habits that help leaders think clearly in any situations. So I’d love you to talk about those, because the, the second, the deliberate wisdom, is probably so, so needed in these times where we’re not clear about what’s coming down the line.
We are in the uncertain times. We don’t have all the data to make decisions, so people lean on the first one when it’s actually not relevant to the situation they’re in.
Caroline Webb: Yeah, so true. Uh, you put it beautifully. I mean, the, there are three big themes that run through the book. The first one is this concept of deliberate wisdom because, you know, so much is changing around us. so [00:04:00] e- even if we have experience, it doesn’t necessarily equip us to make good choices about where we wanna go from here. And in any case, it turns out that we have a tendency to not see the whole picture, even when we are dealing with things that we’ve seen before. Um, it turns out that we have a tiny amount of conscious attention to bring to the world, which is much more complex than our brains can process, and, you know, the difference here is quite stark.
You know, we can process maybe 10 to 100 bits of information at any given time, and the world is bombarding our brain with maybe a billion bits of information. So we’ve got this tiny amount of conscious attention for noticing and processing what’s going on. And so y- we need a bit of humility to understand that we’re gonna be missing stuff all the time. And what we can do as humans, as leaders trying to make good choices, is be aware of that, and then be deliberate about saying, “Okay, well, how do I widen my perspective to make sure [00:05:00] I’m not missing the things that actually matter?” Because left to ourselves, our brain will drive that tiny bit of conscious attention to whatever matches what’s on our minds right now.
There’s a whole family of cognitive biases that sit under that basic observation, what I call the top-of-mind effect. You know, you might have heard of inattentional blindness. That’s the famous basketball gorilla video where if you’ve got a goal in mind, you’ll see everything connected to that, but you’ll miss potentially other things that are interesting. Confirmation bias is another one that people have generally heard of, where you have a strong assumption, you see everything that confirms your assumption. You might miss things that point in another direction. So we wanna be very deliberate about saying, “Uh-huh, I understand I’m missing things. What can I do to throw the aperture a bit wider to see more of what matters?”
And that’s what a lot of the, the advice in the first third of the book is about. But you might be saying, “Well, you’ve just said you’ve got a limited amount of attention, so how on earth are you supposed to [00:06:00] widen, you know, your perspective? Isn’t that, you know, going to be diluting your attention even further?” And the truth is that you have to be, you know, practical about it. You have to say, “Okay, well, how do I lighten the cognitive load anywhere that it doesn’t matter?” Because most of us are frittering our attention across, , various notifications and disruptions and interruptions. We’re not intentional about saying, “Actually, I will be better at bringing my full intention, , intelligence to something that matters if I stop scattering it across all of these different things.” so widen and lighten, that’s how I remember it. widen your perspective where it matters, lighten your cognitive load where you can. And that guides so much of the good advice on how to make good choices, how to g- make, find your way through a complex situation, how to handle disagreement, and, and so forth.
It all goes back to that careful, intentional use of your tiny amount of conscious attention
Aidan: [00:07:00] I thought about a relevant kind of recent point. So we’re in, we’re going into flu season at the moment. My son, my older son has a bit of a cold at the moment. I thought about, for example, you have a GP who sees her fifth chest infection in the week and expects a sixth, but then you have maybe a younger newcomer to the team, and that one notices something different that…
So they widen and they go, they go, “Hey, well, what else could it be? Could it be a heart problem?” And I thought about how that reflects into an organizational sense where the expert, going back to the gorilla, so the expert will see what they’ve seen before and look for it. And oftentimes if they’re under time pressure, then actually accelerate towards that decision and ha- maybe even have it before they even look at it and kind of go, “I know what this is gonna be.”
And it’s usually the one with less experience or the one that’s more curious or maybe, to your point, hasn’t been [00:08:00] overloaded with things that can spot the anomaly in the, in the moment. And, and I, I thought that I’d, uh, love you to share that because this is where stuff like, even stuff like doing meditation, being able to slow down a little bit, being able to see information when you’re not so focused is so, so important
Caroline Webb: Yeah, it’s true. I think it does, I mean, it does take habit to, to overcome this very instinctive, drawing of attention to what confirms what you’re already thinking. That’s a very automatic process, so the only way that you can overcome that and make sure you’re not missing something just because your brain says, “Ooh, I’m doing some pattern matching, so I’m gonna, you know, make sure you notice this, or perceive it in a certain way,” is to say, “Okay, what is my habitual response to something where I, I notice that I feel really strongly about something, I’m very sure of myself?” And I think it really helps to get, you know, just one question that you can always remember. Uh, [00:09:00] one executive that I worked with it was, “What am I missing?” It was very simple Um, you know, for me it’s, “What’s another way of seeing this?” Something that you can reach for, that you can put on a Post-It note, you can write in your notebook, you can just have in your field of vision just to say, “Okay, I notice I’m feeling strongly about it.
What’s top of mind for me? What does that mean I might be missing?” Um, and whatever shorthand you need in order to remember that is what I encourage everyone I work with to, to get a version of. And then of course there are sort of much more specific ways that this can play through. If you find yourself and you are in a difficult or complex situation, and you need to, you need to uncover what’s really going on, this is where what I call 360 degree vision comes in.
You know, it’s very hard for us to see the full picture. We’ve already, you know, said that. So how can you look at a situation from all angles? And again, you [00:10:00] know, my favorite habit is a single question, but I also have a little model for people that is hopefully easy to remember. The 360 degree vision has four different components to it that you might otherwise skip. One is seeing deeper, so asking better, deeper questions of your colleagues. Two is seeing differently, which is seeing the situation from the eyes of somebody who just has a different way of thinking about it. and, you know, that might be mentors, that might be just colleagues, you know, have a contrary view to you. Um, then there’s see across, which is making sure you’re not focused on just one data point, but you’re putting it in context and you’re seeing, you know, how does this fit in? Is this actually normal if you look across, uh, or is this actually unusual? and then see the system, because we often don’t zoom out and see the whole system.
And if you do any of those four things, you deepen your understanding of a complicated situation in a way that can make a huge difference, especially if you’re a manager or a leader trying to make choices that are really [00:11:00] consequential. You wanna do that with the best possible understanding of a situation before you wade
Aidan: do you remember Petit Filous, the little yogurts? And there was an ad, and it was the king’s taster, and the, so the, the taster’s, like, tasting the yogurts, uh, and kind of go- really likes them and is, like, going, “Oh, you wouldn’t like these, King,” and gives the king an apple, and the king bites the apple and dies, right?
And, uh, the, I, I often think about how the same thing happens to leaders, where people go, “Oh, you couldn’t tell Caroline that. She wouldn’t like to hear that news.” Uh, instead of actually, she needs to hear this news. I know it’s bad. I know it’s not what we want to hear, but a client was not happy, or there’s a supply chain issue, we need to tell her ASAP.
And in your, in the book, you say information gets bent on its way to the top, and again, this distorts what leadership sees. But leaders forget that that happens.
Caroline Webb: Yes. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, this is the, the body of research that’s known as [00:12:00] employee voice. You know, are your employees giving voice to, the things that they’re worrying about, the things that they’re noticing, and is it filtering its way up to you? This is the work that Amy Edmondson, started many, many years ago, and then she talked about psychological safety being a condition that you need to create in order for employees to be able to feel okay about raising issues that are going to be a little bumpy. this is, absolutely, you know, this is something that great leaders really invest deliberately in, which is signaling that they really do want to hear what’s going on. And if you don’t make a deliberate effort, it’s not that your colleagues are, you know, deliberately hiding things from you, but it’s just y- you need to create the conditions for them to raise concerns that may not be fully baked.
I mean, if you think about yourself and you think about, “Well, you know, I had a bit of a concern about that, but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t sure,” you actually need to hear [00:13:00] this stuff as a, as a leader. And so being very clear about “Yes, I wanna learn, I wanna understand, I wanna, you know, I want to excavate, you know, what, what’s really going on in this situation,” at the beginning of a conversation is quite different than just walking in and saying, “Well, what do you think’s going on?” If you step back and say, “Okay, wanted to talk to you because I’m really confused about what’s happening with this, the rollout of this process that just doesn’t seem to be working properly. I’m trying to better understand what’s going on with it. With, you know, assuming that everybody’s well-intended, can you help me understand why it’s so hard?
T- can we talk about what you’re seeing? Can we talk about, you know, what’s your sense of what’s going on, and what’s driving that?” Very different type of conversation. The person’s not gonna feel like you’re evaluating them. Y- you’re going in and really telegraphing that you’re, you are curious and want to understand. And that preamble, so [00:14:00] easy to breeze through and just assume, “Well, of course I’m not evaluating them. I’m just trying to find out.” But unless you stop and label it and be very intentional about signaling it at the beginning of a conversation, people are gonna be naturally much more nervous about speaking up.
Aidan: I spoke a few years ago to Bethany McLean, who wrote the book The Smartest Guys in the Room: The Story of Enron.
Caroline Webb: Enron,
Aidan: Yeah, brilliant book, and she was the journalist who actually uncovered the false reporting and actually started the whole snowball effect to uncover what was going on. But she s- she said about this, she said, “Look,” she said, “Nobody wants to be told by their kid, ‘Mom, your cooking sucks.’”
Like, no leader wants to be told, “Your… This is wrong,” or, “The strategy’s flawed,” or, “I see something different.” So I wondered what in the book you advise to somebody who is that type of gainsayer inside an organization. Somebody who… I- ’cause often it’s a, it’s a character trait for somebody to go, “Look, I can’t be quiet.
I have to tell you about [00:15:00] this. I know it’s probably be, you’re gonna keep a receipt on me about telling you this, but I have to tell you.” And it’s dangerous. I mean, being a whistleblower is not always a, a positive for the whistleblower, but it’s great for the company. But
Caroline Webb: Yeah.
Aidan: it’s really challenging. And for people who are often conflicted with that, I mean, it’s a very human reason where you might go, “My job.
You know, I have a mortgage to pay. I don’t wanna lose this job. I don’t wanna go back to the market. And if I say something, they’re gonna come after me.”
Caroline Webb: Oh, for sure. And, you know, the, uh, what I would say is that the best leaders, and every, every chapter in the book has a role model, someone I know who’s really good at the, you know, the topic of the, of the chapter. The leaders who are in the deliberate wisdom section of the book, all of them are smart about making sure that they have a little process to draw out what people are thinking. don’t leave it to chance. so I’ve talked about, you know, how you would ask genuine open questions and, you know, with signaling really real curiosity when you’re in a [00:16:00] one-to-one. But in a group setting, there’s, there’s some extra source that it’s helpful to, to know about. You know, if you, if you do something called turn-taking, research is really clear that groups get smarter if leaders do draw out the quiet voices, and say, “I notice you haven’t said anything,” you know, would you, what would you add?”
Or, “I’d like to hear from the people who haven’t spoken yet.” Or, you know, if you’ve got time, and it’s really important, you don’t always have time, and it’s not always as important as this, but you might say, “I wanna hear one thing from everybody.” the other thing that I really advocate is something I call hypothetical questions, and the way that works is you’re surfacing thoughts that aren’t fully baked. If you think about, you know, that fear of, well, I don’t know whether, whether I’m sure about this or not, but if you ask people to say, “If you had a concern, what would it be?” conditional language creates a bit of distance, so you don’t have to be sure, [00:17:00] if you had a concern, what would it be? You are going to hear so much more of what’s really going on, and you legitimize the surfacing of, you know, little niggles and stuff that wouldn’t otherwise see the light of day. Um, and that is, you know, that is one of my favorite ways of making sure that you get to the real conversation in a, in a group. And in fact, that, you know, I mean, to be clear, that works one-to-one as well. I mean, if I was sitting with you, Aidan, as I… You know, if you had a concern, what would it be? I’m, I’m therefore lowering the ante for you to say, “Well, actually, Caroline, you know, if I had a concern, the thing would be” And there we go, and then we’ve got a real conversation.
Aidan: I love the role models you introduce in each of the chapters. And the, what we’re talking about here, just to help signpost it, is in chapter one you talk about understanding a complex situation, and importantly, 360 degree vision, which is that point that you make. But the, the hero here, or the exemplar that you [00:18:00] give, is a guy called Michael Roberts.
He was the CMO in MetLife. And what I found really interesting about it, and I’d love you to share how he does it, but was that many times the most prolific people in a role are outsiders. And by being outsiders or having some previously different skill, they, that’s, that’s actually positive. It might feel at the start a bit like, “Oh, I’m an imposter,” but actually brings a new set of lenses to the very point of having 360 degree vision.
But Michael had a great way of managing this with his team
Caroline Webb: Yeah. I mean, it’s a bit back to your example of the GP who’s newer, and perhaps therefore is coming in and asking the questions. And Buddhists would say this is the begin- the beginner’s mind. You’re coming in with that degree of openness and curiosity. Um, so Michael had a background as an opera singer, and he made the leap into working in [00:19:00] business.
And initially, of course, he had a lot to learn. You can imagine. He had quite a steep leaning, uh, learning curve, and he discovered that he was asking questions that actually often uncovered real insight that his colleagues weren’t asking. So it’s almost a perfect, uh, analogy for, for the GP situation that you’re talking about.
And so he kept hold of that. He aimed to keep hold of that openness and curiosity. Um, and so he developed the habits that I write about in, uh, in that chapter. he’s, uh, very good at doing… We talked about sort of asking questions of your team, but he was also very good at, uh, asking questions of mentors and peers and saying, “Okay, what, what could I be missing?
What would be a different way of seeing this?” And I like doing this actually just, um, you know, in your own head. I mean, if you just imagine three or four people who, you know, always challenge you a little bit, maybe see things in a different way. Maybe, maybe it’s a bit annoying that they do, you [00:20:00] know, y- but you remember conversations with them that were meaty and good. You don’t actually have to reach out to them, although, you know, it’s great if you can. You can just imagine what they would say to you. Okay, what, what would, what would Natalie say to me I might be missing on this? Or what would Colin say I might be missing? so, you know, that can give you a little bit of extra insight that you would otherwise be missing. And if you have your little roster of, you know, people in your mind that you’ve got for this purpose, your personal advisory board sometimes it’s called, then you can reach for those alternate, those different perspectives, , quite quickly. And that’s something you can also use AI for. You can role, role play and role, , and, and, and rehearse the challenging conversations you might have with these people who would help you see, you know, what you’re missing. And I think this is another place where those hypothetical questions can come into play. You can say, “Look, if you were, if you weren’t trying to be [00:21:00] polite and if I were missing something, what would you say?” That’s helped me on, on a number of occasions to see something I would otherwise have missed
Aidan: If, if I wasn’t your boss and you were at the water cooler, what would you say about me? Never answer that. Never answer that. But, uh, speaking of which, so chapter six talks about handling a disagreement well, and I, I actually said, “I’m gonna ask this for my own personal life.” No.
Caroline Webb: Asking for a friend.
Aidan: Yeah, yeah. This is for a friend, Hayden McMullen, a friend of mine.
Uh, anyway, th- this is why people argue badly, and we all argue badly. I wish this was a, a class you could take in university or school to teach people how to do it, instead of dodging it, instead of avoiding it. I mean, so many divorces, so many challenges in organizations, so many disasters. You know, you talk about cockpits, the [00:22:00] cockpit culture, not being able to speak up to a superior, not being able to argue about a thing.
So much problems come from this, and it’s so solvable, and this is why I really wanted to double click on this chapter, and I’d love you to share four things you talk about it. Why do people, good people, argue badly?
Caroline Webb: Well, there’s quite a lot of reasons, uh, that it, that, you know, we end up in disagreement. So first of all, we have something called naive realism, which is where we assume that our perspective on the world is basically right. we kind of need that just to man- navigate the world, right? If we assume we were constantly wrong, it would be, you know, exhausting.
We need to basically assume that what we’re seeing is true, that the reality we’re experiencing is correct. but the challenge is that with that naive realism, we assume that when someone else a- disagrees with us, well, they must be wrong because otherwise, you know, how would that all square up? So that’s the first thing.
The second thing is because of [00:23:00] confirmation bias, we’re assuming that we’re not going to see anything that disconfirms our assumptions. And so, you know, when we’re actually in a conversation with someone who’s arguing differently to us, we can sometimes not actually perceive, properly hear what they’re saying, or we can twist it, you know, so that it fits our, our worldview. Then on top of that, you’re in a disagreement, people’s attention tends to be drawn to the areas that you disagree, and that’s because of mood-congruent perception. You know, we tend to notice things that chime with our, our state of mind, I’ve already said that, and that includes actually your mood and your attitude.
So if you’re in a bad mood, you’re more likely to see things that are, uh, the negative aspects of a situation. And so when you’re in a disagreement, you’re feeling combative, you’re gonna notice the areas that you disagree more than the areas that you agree, which actually can be quite a lot. You know, when we are in a disagreement with someone, it’s so hard [00:24:00] to see all of these areas that you agree. So that starts to give us a clue about how we, how we proceed. And then finally, when we’re, , in a disagreement, it’s quite likely to trigger a sense of, your competence being undermined and perhaps your sense of connection with a person being undermined. Things that get perceived by the brain as unpleasant can trigger a stress response, and in that stress response, what I call defensive mode, you actually narrow your perception, and it’s even harder to hear what the other person is saying if one or the other of you or both often, , is on the defensive. So that’s why it’s so hard. But actually, all of those bits of science point towards what you can do practically to navigate your way very elegantly through any, any disagreement. That’s quite a claim, isn’t it, what I’ve just said there? But I, I do believe, I’ve seen this process work again and again. I’m very happy to lay it out.
Aidan: Yeah, please do. I, and maybe we’ll finish on that. I, I just wanted to share a brilliant, there’s, an artist, he has a Substack. It, it called Jonathan Hey, and [00:25:00] he, it’s called Sketchplanations, so the idea of explanations through sketches. And he has one on Hanlon’s razor. And Hanlon’s razor has been one of these ones that’s so useful for me, which is never put down to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
And the example he gives, so in his drawing, it’s somebody walking along and seeing litter all over the path, and kinda like shaking their fist going, “What an idiot, whoever did that.” And then around the corner, they’re, they can see a person who has their bag of, of rubbish that they’re putting in the bin, but it happens to have a hole in it.
So it’s
Caroline Webb: There
Aidan: And yeah, I know, and, and I just think, you know, if that’s, if that’s your moment of pause to just go, “Wait a second. They’re not out to get me. They’re not out to go after my argument. They’re not trying to undermine me. There’s probably an explanation,” or they just don’t have all the data, it’s so, so helpful.
But then you p- do it brilliantly here to explain how to actually lay this out. [00:26:00] A- and this goes to a personal sense as well as an organizational one
Caroline Webb: Absolutely. And actually, by the way, when it comes to Hanlon’s razor, my version, let’s call it Webb’s razor, is never ascribe to malice what would be otherwise explained by incapacity. You know, I think stupidity is in its own, its own judgment, but actually there’s a more neutral version of it. So let’s take that, let’s take that philosophy, let’s take that spirit. So the, the technique that, – I’ve seen work again and again, whatever the disagreement is, there’s five steps, and any one of them honestly makes a big difference. So the first step is to articulate the other person’s point of view as if you really like it, and that means saying, “Okay, you think this because of that.”
And this is where you’re not, you’re not half-assing it. You’re, you’re not, you’re not kind of underplaying. You’re, you’re really saying, “Okay, well, if I really agreed with this, what would I say to explain it?” Even just doing that, as you can imagine, gets you off the starting blocks because then the other person feels heard, and then you actually [00:27:00] have a chance of a better conversation. If you’re a manager and you’re sitting above two colleagues who are disagreeing, or peers, you can invite them to do that with each other. That takes a bit of, a bit of trust, but you can also simply say, “Okay, I’m gonna summarize this person’s point of view, and then I’m gonna summarize this person’s point of view.”
So there are a few ways that you can use this as s- essentially to mediate or facilitate other people’s disagreements. So that’s step one. Second step is list all the areas of agreement. much more than you think. it could be, you know, history, it could be sh- values, it could be information, it could be all sorts of things, and it’s often, uh, something that we skip over, and that’s really important to act as a base because it does get submerged under a disagreement because of that mood congruent perception I was talking about. you wanna explore, okay, well, where do we disagree and why? What shaped those perce- uh, perspectives? You know, it’s to your point about the, the bag with a hole in it. Maybe there’s a reason why something is [00:28:00] happening or something has shaped your perception and, and your, your views of what the right approach is.
You know, m- maybe you’ve only ever seen successes in doing this particular, you know, piece of work, and the other person has had a horrible, catastrophic thing go wrong. Okay, now that’s why you might have a different approach to thinking about the right way forward. And then the next question, which is sort of weird honestly the first time you hear it, is how could you both be right? And what happens there is usually, well, maybe you’re right in different situations or different populations or in different, you know, uh, different times. Um, and then finally the fifth step is, okay, well, what can you do now based on your common ground? Because all of those steps have been building that sense of you’re standing on common ground.
You might be standing apart, you might be looking in different directions, but there is a feeling now that you’re on the same ground together. And it’s often the case I’ve seen again and again, oh, now you can see, oh, well, actually we could try these two different approaches, or [00:29:00] there’s a bunch of stuff we can do even if we don’t just- don’t agree on everything.
So let’s get going on that. And it’s really beautiful to see it happen. And it’s… works, by the way, in families just as well as it works in, in organizations.
Aidan: I’ll tell my friend Hayden McMullan about it. He’ll be delighted. He’ll be delighted to hear that. I’m just finishing my notes here. Wait a second.
Caroline Webb: Yeah, just da-da-da, scribble, scribble, scribble. Yeah.
Aidan: Caroline, that’s absolutely fantastic. I, I’d love to go deeper. I mean, just to give people a sense, we’ve probably covered maybe six paragraphs of the book there, and, and you can see how it’s like a double click to go deeper on where is the science, what’s the bias behind that, what’s the fallacy, and you can build an argument.
And it’s so, so useful. And, you know, I really feel I’m so privileged to talk to people like you and read your books because when you do it, you realize how little we know, and also it always keeps your [00:30:00] mind open to things like an argument to go, “Well, maybe there is something I, I can’t see.” And I, I have so much empathy for people who are so overloaded at work that they, they can’t learn.
They don’t… Well, they feel they can’t, or maybe they’re not rewarded to, or maybe they are overloaded, or they’re not taking the time, and all these things, and even down to things like breathing exercises and exercise and taking breaks is so, so important. So thank you for, for sharing that with us as well.
Maybe you’ll tell us where people can find you and find the book and more about your work.
Caroline Webb: Oh, thank you. So my website is probably the best, place to go, which is carolinewebb.co. That’s Webb with two Bs, and it’s .co. And you’ll find information about Leadership Intelligence and lots of readers guides as well to help you make the most of the book, as well as a chance to subscribe to my newsletter.
If you like the kind of conversation that we’ve had, you might like the newsletter. And so I’d love to see you there, and of course, you can always find me on LinkedIn, so happy to see [00:31:00] people there
Aidan: And don’t let the accent fool you. Caroline’s based in New York, so if you’re looking for her, you’re gonna have to fly her over this side of the pond as well. But, it’s been an absolute, absolute pleasure having you on the show. Author of Leadership Intelligence, Caroline Webb, thank you for joining us
Caroline Webb: Thank you so much, Aidan
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